Suspension Emergency

Discussion in 'Suspension/Chassis' started by skahide, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. skahide

    skahide Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just got a 94 2wd Toyota. It has NO power options. It was a ranch truck it's whole life. It is my daily driver and have noticed the steering is loose. Not too big of a problem UNTIL I just put on my 18" 350z rims. drove it down the street and now the steering WAY LOOSE. I assume it is magnified because i went from 195/70r14 to 245/45r18. I KNOW NOTHING OF STEERING PARTS!! WHAT DO I CHECK? WHAT DO I FIX?
     
  2. Shadetree Mechanic

    Shadetree Mechanic Addict

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Emerald Triangle, CA
    Truck:
    '79 4x4,'89 short-bed 2wd, '85 4Runner
    For a quick driveway diagnostic of the steering components, jack up the front of the vehicle and support the frame rails on jack stands. With the suspension at full droop, have a strong helper grab the front and back of the tire and rock it back and forth as if it is turning. While they are doing this, look at the tie rod ends and check for play. Also look at the idler arm that comes down from the frame rail on the passenger side. Any visible play in any of these is bad and the tie rod end or idler arm should be replaced. Now have them grab the top and bottom of the tire (make sure the vehicle is securely supported) and rock top to bottom. This time visually inspect the ball joints at the top and bottom of the spindle to check for play. Also look for play from the hub to the spindle if the wheel bearing fit is no longer tight. This process should help you narrow down the problem. :waytogo:
     
  3. skahide

    skahide Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    well im the lone person here. so i put it on stands, and i cannot move it at all when rocking from top to bottom. now when rocking side to side, the steering wheel locked in place, i get movement with everything. no play, it all moves as soon as i try. it also is moving the steering wheel a good little bit, even though it is locked. any ideas? sorry for the loss of correct part names but i have no idea what anything is.
     
  4. IronNam

    IronNam Grand Toyotaholic

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    6,960
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Kansas -> NorCal
    Truck:
    94 XCab
    Did you leave the key in it as you moved it?

    Steering stabilizer, that "shock" up front, is it working fine?

    Steering links, do they look alright?
     
  5. Shadetree Mechanic

    Shadetree Mechanic Addict

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Emerald Triangle, CA
    Truck:
    '79 4x4,'89 short-bed 2wd, '85 4Runner
    OK, I'll try to simplify. First the reason I was saying to get a strong helper is because you want to use a good amount of elbow grease when doing these checks. If you have any doubt recheck everything using a little more muscle. If there is no movement top to bottom then that should eliminate the upper and lower ball joints and wheel bearings. Now side to side, there is a metal rod with some contraptions on it to allow it to flex. These contraptions are called tie rod ends (see attached). These should have no play. Once again, you want to really put some muscle into it, so if you can find a helper it would be really good, even if they aren't strong, maybe get them to look at the tie rod ends. There is an arm coming down from your steering box to whats called the center link. On each end of the center link is two sets of tie rod ends. An inner and an outer. Each of these can be the source of the problem. On the opposite side of the center link is the idler arm. It will be the one coming down from the frame on the passenger side in about the same position as the steering arm coming down from the steering box bolted to the driver side frame rail. If there is no play in any of these, there may be some other problem like a severely out of balance or bent wheel. What exactly do you mean by "loose" steering?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  6. skahide

    skahide Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    All of this was an issue before i switched wheels, just on a smaller scale. I went from stock 14"s to 18"s.
    The key was in my pocket. the shock looks fine, dirty as heck. i didnt see if it moved fine, because the steering was locked.

    well even before replacing the wheels, they car would "wander". while driving, even while holding wheel straight, it might wander one way or another. Ill recheck everything again tomorrow, if it ever stops raining (started when i was doing this earlier)
     
  7. Shadetree Mechanic

    Shadetree Mechanic Addict

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Emerald Triangle, CA
    Truck:
    '79 4x4,'89 short-bed 2wd, '85 4Runner
    In that case I'd also check the toe-in. I believe you want about an 1/8" on these trucks meaning if you take a tape measure and find a line around the tire to measure to consistently (like a seam or a straight tread line), the distance at the front of the tire should be about 1/8" less than the distance apart at the back of the tire. Picture the front of the tire as the "toe" and you can kinda visualize the idea of toe in. This is important to have the correct tendency to return to center. This can become out of adjustment from cranking the torsions, putting on drop spindles, or adjusting the camber. If you have less or more than an 1/8" of toe in, then that's the first thing to fix.
     
  8. MTB68TOY

    MTB68TOY Addict

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2007
    Messages:
    729
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Jackson NJ
    Truck:
    93-2wd 2.5/3drop, 87-4wd22RTE, 06GTOls2, 08FJCruiserTT(Daily)
    sounds like your tramlining dude....
    the tendency for the wheels to follow the ruts in the road and wander side to side in the lane as you go...
    Mine was really bad in the right lane of the highway where the ruts from the trucks are


    First off your steering stabilizer is probably shot!

    get in front of the truck ...bend over and look under the front bumper... see that sideways shock.... go get a new one.... that will help alot

    I actually did a custom double stabilizer to cut down on my tramlining

    I am also in the middle of rebuilding my truck, I noticed my tire wear is uneven and I need to have my camber adjusted (my wheels tilt in too much and ride on the inner tire edge) this is also contributing to my steering wander/tramlining

    you may want to check that too if it continues after a new steering stabilizer...

    part of the problem is the tire is wider only to the outside and it puts more stress on the inner tire edge
     
  9. dillinja666

    dillinja666 Toyotaholic

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    san diego
    Truck:
    I gots no truck, for now
    you cannot properly check suspension when its unloaded. I would leave the car on the ground. have someone grab the steering wheel and move it from side to side only a little bit. move the wheel only a few inches. You are going to want to be on the ground under the truck and with your hand you are going to want to grab every joint in the steering part of the suspension. This is both outer tie rod ends ( the rubber ends closest to the brakes ) the inner ends ( the rubber parts that connect to the center link ) and the idle arm and the pitman arm ( the two arms that connect to the center link, one off the frame, one off the steering box ) you should easily be able to feel if there is play in these parts. Then after that jack up the truck, and with the suspension unloaded grab the top and bottom of the tire and push and pull in opposite directions and feel if anything is loose. If there is play have someone do this and look to see if the play is in the hub( part with the studs for the lugs is ) or the ball joints ( where the spindle connects to the upper and lower control arms ) is loose.

    sorry for the long post... good luck
     
  10. skahide

    skahide Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    alright, i'll have to check all those things out once the weather clears up.
     
  11. Shadetree Mechanic

    Shadetree Mechanic Addict

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Emerald Triangle, CA
    Truck:
    '79 4x4,'89 short-bed 2wd, '85 4Runner
    I assume you are talking about these steering components, and I wonder why you would say that you can't check them with the suspension unloaded? The weight of the vehicle on the bad component can cause it to bind in a manner that makes it seem like a tight fit when in fact it's not. At any rate, any of the checks we are describing work better in my experience with the suspension unloaded (except the toe in, that should be done on the ground).

    I am also doubtful that the problem would be that severe from a worn out steering stabilizer, but I guess it could be.:shrug:
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  12. MTB68TOY

    MTB68TOY Addict

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2007
    Messages:
    729
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Jackson NJ
    Truck:
    93-2wd 2.5/3drop, 87-4wd22RTE, 06GTOls2, 08FJCruiserTT(Daily)

    trust me... its his stabilizer....

    its and old work truck, money says its the stock original stabilizer.

    Just how many times has anyone heard of a yota having the tierods loose and worn, I honestly never have and certainly not associated with a "tramlining" issue...

    trust me I got over 70,000 miles of tramlining experience....

    skahide
    trust me dude change your stabilizer first... even if by chance it's not that it would still need to be changed...

    Check my thread on it almost three years ago...
    http://www.toyotaminis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=306&highlight=tramlining

    kinda a bit fuzzy but here is a pick of the dual stabilizer on the lift during my 4wd caliper swap


    [​IMG]

    here is a picture during my front frame repair
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Shadetree Mechanic

    Shadetree Mechanic Addict

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Emerald Triangle, CA
    Truck:
    '79 4x4,'89 short-bed 2wd, '85 4Runner
    The reason I said to check the tie rods in the first place was because he said his steering was "loose". Once he actually described the symptoms I told him t check his toe in. I agree that his steering stabilizer could undoubtedly use replacing, but I think there is more to the problem.

    Also, just because you haven't seen a bad tie rod on a Toyota doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They can wear out or be damaged in an impact from a collision. Given the work truck history, this is also a fairly likely scenario IMO.
     
  14. IronNam

    IronNam Grand Toyotaholic

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    6,960
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Kansas -> NorCal
    Truck:
    94 XCab
    so check the tie rods AND the dampers!

    lol, do both at once.


    damper should be fairly easy to remove too.
     
  15. Shadetree Mechanic

    Shadetree Mechanic Addict

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Emerald Triangle, CA
    Truck:
    '79 4x4,'89 short-bed 2wd, '85 4Runner
    And the toe in! :waytogo:
     
  16. Shadetree Mechanic

    Shadetree Mechanic Addict

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Emerald Triangle, CA
    Truck:
    '79 4x4,'89 short-bed 2wd, '85 4Runner
    :confused:Apparently my "attitude" in this thread has managed to offend people. I am really bummed out about that. All I was trying to do was help someone with a "suspension emergency"... Then when people started posting up conflicting information, I asked them questions about it. I want to learn! That's what brought me here in the first place. If there is some reason why it is actually better to check steering components or ball joints on the ground, I want to know why. I don't just want someone to tell me "you can't do that!"... And as far as the steering stabilizer issue, I agree with you that it probably needs replaced, but I bet the same could be said for over half the trucks of this era, and I have never seen it result in anything that would be described as a "suspension emergency". It's frustrating to me that we can't have a civil discussion stating opposing views.:confused:
     
  17. dillinja666

    dillinja666 Toyotaholic

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    san diego
    Truck:
    I gots no truck, for now
    you are mistaken if you think im mad..im just really busy at work and cannot be on the computer the whole day. If you are checking the steering components it is best to have the weight of the vehicle on the components and put pressure on them from the steering box..the best way to do this is simply by turning the wheel. The balljoints and hubs cannot be checked on the ground, you have to check those with the suspension unloaded. In that sense you are correct. I dont know how to explain really well why it works best checking the steering on the ground, it just does. Its to due with leverage of the steering wheel and the resistance of the tires and the weight of the vehicle on the ground. I do this test every day with every vehicle i pull into my bay.

    Im not mad, im just in a rush when im on here and typing very fast. The only time i get on the computer is when im looking something up for working on a customers car. Right now im doing a timing belt on a 1990 ls400 and pulling a blown up transmission on a honda odyssey at the same time. i dont mean to be rude im just in a rush, sorry
     
  18. Shadetree Mechanic

    Shadetree Mechanic Addict

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Emerald Triangle, CA
    Truck:
    '79 4x4,'89 short-bed 2wd, '85 4Runner
    Hey dillinja666, I was not actually referring to you, but I am really glad you're not mad! :D Like I said, I am here to learn. Your explanation makes sense to me completely now as it was the hub and the ball joints that I mainly thought you needed the vehicle off the ground. As for the tie rods, I agree, it is probably easiest and best just to have the vehicle on the ground and have someone turn the wheel while you watch. I was trying to give a single general diagnostic that would cover all of those issues.

    The reason I was saying that I had offended people in this thread was because of this post:

    http://www.toyotaminis.com/forum/showthread.php?p=61827#post61827

    I am all for discussion of conflicting opinions personally, and my wanting to get to the bottom of the question of diagnostics on the ground or off is only to gain a better understanding for myself and others I might try to help out later on. I am glad to be able to share these ideas with fellow mechanically inclined folks! :waytogo:
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  19. dillinja666

    dillinja666 Toyotaholic

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    san diego
    Truck:
    I gots no truck, for now
    ah ok...ya im here to help too, thats why i was posting in this thread. If the guy is holding the steering wheel stable and the truck is all over the place its a dangerious situation. I hope the op get things straightened out. if you need any more help op, just post up.

    sorry about the thread jack :)
    [​IMG]
     
  20. skahide

    skahide Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for all the ideas guys. it has been raining ALL DAY, so havent had the chance to do anything. Supposed to stop tomorrow, so we will see. By the way, if i have the $$, what could it cost and what should i replace? I have a parts truck that is an 89, that was a highway driver. alot of miles but no hard work. figured i might take some stuff off of that instead of buy new. figured ill be replacing stuff until it is fixed BUT if cheap enough i might just replace it all anyway.
     

Share This Page