Brake upgrade questions (F18Q swap?)

Discussion in 'Suspension/Chassis' started by aaron_sk, May 20, 2015.

  1. aaron_sk

    aaron_sk Enthusiast

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    I have a '94 regular cab that needs new brakes. It's a light duty truck (4400lb. gvwr, A01A axle) so it got the sorriest of brake packages from the factory.

    I am planning on doing the dual-diaphragm and 1" master swap, but I want to see what is available for front pads an rotors.

    I have heard that the V6 trucks had better brakes, and that the calipers had a casting mark of F18Q. RockAuto sells those calipers loaded with brackets already on them, so has anyone swapped these on to the lighter-duty spindles? Do the brackets match up or is the V6 spindle different?

    If not, is there any other upgrade options I should be looking at? I want to stick with parts store/junkyard parts to keep long-term maintenance costs down, and I want to keep my 14" wheels, so I'm not looking for any crazy Wilwood swaps or anything like that. This is just a work truck after all.

    Thanks!
     
  2. jetas

    jetas Grand Toyotaholic

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    You can make 4Runner calipers work but youd have to make a caliper bracket. Theres a few threads on here about the brake swap
     
  3. aaron_sk

    aaron_sk Enthusiast

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    All the 4x4 brake swaps I have seen would require Wilwood parts ($$$, not readily available) and replacing my wheels and tires. Is there an option I am missing with them?
     
  4. jetas

    jetas Grand Toyotaholic

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    Only wilwood parts used on one of the swaps was the rotor. Not like youre going to be replacing them every two months.
     
  5. aaron_sk

    aaron_sk Enthusiast

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    No, but I drive enough miles to justify the use of stock parts, plus I see no reason to spend $300 on a pair of rotors and hats for an old work truck.

    My other concern is that I do not want to "over-brake" the tires. I still run 195mm all-weather radials for better fuel economy. I have a hard traction traction ceiling that no brake will help.

    Unfortunately the stock brakes are poor enough that I can't lock the fronts without an inordinate amount of pedal pressure.
     
  6. White Trash

    White Trash Toyotaholic

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    1" master bolted to a dual diaphragm booster with stainless braided brake lines. Get the air out and adjust everything properly and you'll have better brakes than you thought possible.


    I'm still running the stock base model calipers and rotors with rear drums on my autocross truck. I have new rotors and hawk ferro carbon pads but so far there is no need to change them.
     
  7. aaron_sk

    aaron_sk Enthusiast

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    Good info, thanks! I felt certain that the master cylinder and booster were a big part of the problem and it is good to hear confirmation on that.

    Do you happen to remember the part number on your Hawk pads?
     
  8. White Trash

    White Trash Toyotaholic

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    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hwk-hb407f-602


    If you're worried about having too good of brakes you're doing it wrong. Ultra grabby brakes are a problem but being able to lock up the tires with moderate pressure isn't what you want. As good as my brakes are they will only lock up if I really stand on the pedal full force. I like them. :D
     
  9. aaron_sk

    aaron_sk Enthusiast

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    Hmm. It is very interesting that Hawk lists that pad for both the four and six cylinder trucks, while every other manufacturer specifies a different shaped pad for the V6. Physically they look like the V6 pad. I wonder if it is some type of hybrid so they only have to stock one part.

    I measured up an L4 and V6 caliper side by side today and I found that the mounting holes are the same, and in the same spots, but the entire assembly (caliper and bracket) was 1/4" wider (across) on the V6, and it is slightly deeper. I assume the thickness must be made up in the pad because the rotors are nominally the same thickness (although the V6 rotor is about 3/16" larger diameter).

    Since it looks like no one has tried this I think I will just go ahead and order an entire V6 setup. Worst-case scenario I waste half an hour in the shop and a couple bucks on restocking fees, best case scenario I get better rotors and pads for no real extra expenditure.
     
  10. White Trash

    White Trash Toyotaholic

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    I looked into doing the V6 setup but in the end my brakes are fantastic as is so the idea was scrapped. I also was leaning heavily on going with mk3 supra parts from the spindles out since they are dropped 1 1/2" compared to the truck parts and have 11" (if I recall correctly) rotors and larger calipers but I scored truck drop spindles cheap and decided to stick with 15" wheels.

    If this truck was seeing long track days I'd be running supra parts at the minimum but at the end of the day I've got all the brakes I need. Having said that I'm on the hunt for a good rear disc swap with functional e brake. As long as they work as good as my stock drums I'll be happy. I do like the slight bling factor of discs on a pickup. :lol:
     
  11. aaron_sk

    aaron_sk Enthusiast

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    An update to this if anyone is interested. The F18Q (V6) brake setup is a direct swap for the base-model 17S front brakes. The hub is the same, and the bracket bolts up to the spindle perfectly.

    The only thing that needed modification was the brake line bracket that bolts onto the caliper. I have no idea why by the casting bosses are very slightly farther apart and I had to wallow out the upper hole.

    And now some pictures...

    [​IMG]

    The V6 pads are shaped differently, with slightly more surface area, but it's negligible. The benefit of the V6 pads is in the thickness. There is about 1/8" more friction material per pad (the caliper is about 1/4" wider) so better heat dissipation and longer pad life. The tabs are in the same place on both, so I suspect I am right in thinking that Hawk is just making a one-size-fits-all pad.



    [​IMG]

    The rotors are the same width, but the V6 is about 1/4" larger diameter. Identical cooling vanes and wall thickness. Negligable differences, really.



    [​IMG]

    The calipers are where the improvement is. Check out how much larger the V6 piston is. It's not very well illustrated by my photo but the caliper body is quite a bit beefier all around. The 2wd V6 trucks got a larger-bore master cylinder vs. the 4cyl. trucks (but still smaller than the 4wd), and that bore size is why.



    [​IMG]

    I banged out some other projects on the truck this afternoon, as you can see. :lol: The 4wd V6 double-diaphragm master/booster combo is a direct bolt-in. The stock single diaphragm booster has an aluminum spacer holding it off the firewall so all the lines end up in the exact same spot. The brake light switch was even the exact same plug on mine, although some of the earlier trucks had the switch in the cap. I suspect that is all common knowledge around here though.

    I'm also nearly certain that this setup would work on a second-gen truck as they started using the 17S brake setup in '85 and all the part numbers carry over until '95.


    Overall I think that this is obviously not enough of an upgrade to rush out and install on a truck right away, but if your truck is due for a brake job but you're not planning on any crazy Lexus or 4x4 brake swaps then there is absolutely no reason to keep buying the 4cyl. brakes as the V6 stuff is virtually the same price!

    $180 in this including shipping and core charges from RockAuto for the entire setup, plus new wheel bearings, races and seals.
    $15 on brake fluid and brake cleaner
    $27 + $2 door fee at the junkyard for the 4x4 booster/master combo.


    Anyway, that's all I've got. Certainly it's no earth-shattering upgrade, but the truck drops anchor quite nicely now and for the price I paid I'm happy.
     
  12. jetas

    jetas Grand Toyotaholic

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    Good to see you were able to get this done and working!
     
  13. White Trash

    White Trash Toyotaholic

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    How much of the V6 rotor sticks out above the surface of the brake pads?
     
  14. Ryno5150

    Ryno5150 Member

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    Thanks for posting this. I'm doing a 1UZ swap in my 89 reg cab and wanted an upgrade, but wanted something bolt on. I'll have enough fab work with that swap, didn't want to have to do any other fab work. I assumed the 2WD V6 calipers would work, but never assume...
     
  15. aaron_sk

    aaron_sk Enthusiast

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    Glad to see someone giving it a shot. I've been very happy with this swap over the past year!

    Funny you should ask. I took a photo after I did the swap, they align perfectly:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
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  16. Hybrid240z

    Hybrid240z Newbie

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    I completed this upgrade recently on my 89 base model pickup. The difference is very noticeable. I feel more confident braking in traffic now.
     

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